Interview with the Partner

Upon the request of my interviewee, I have kept his identity confidential. I have written this interview to the best of my ability capturing both the essence of the interview and the personality. I hope you find this interview useful. Regards, The Accountant.

Me: Thank you very much, John, for taking the opportunity to speak with me today. I speak on behalf of all the readers at “I want to be a CA” that we really appreciate your time today.

John: It’s a pleasure. We can skip the formalities (with a chuckle). How can I help?

Me: Can you please give background information to our readers about who you are, when you attained the CA designation and CFA Designaiton?

John: Absolutely. My career started probably more than forty years ago. I did my undergraduate at U of T back in the days when a bachelor degree was often enough. I was already considered highly educated at the time, and opted for no further education after that. You could probably find a nice middle class income if you just had a strong back in those times. Higher education was considered an enhancement as opposed to a necessity.

When I was about 22, 23, I was working at a factory assembly line. The hours were long, and the job was tough but it paid for the car, and the alcohol. Those were teenager things you did at the time. I was pretty content with my job at the time, but I couldn’t vision a future as a factory worker. I started having lots of tough moments contemplating what I was going to do with my life.

Around 25, when I saved enough money, I decided to travel in Europe. I figured I might as well spend my youth wisely. I visited Rome, Italy, Spain, France, Switzerland and a bunch of different other places that would shape my future.

Around 27 or so, a good friend of mine got me curious in the CA designation. You must remember that the CA Designation in the past is not exactly the same as the CA designation today. Things have evolved so dramatically. I decided to go for it, and at age 33, I got my CA designation. I was working for the equivalent of KPMG at the time before its merger with Peat Marwick.

I worked in professional services for six years, before I got bored of it. At the same time, I was studying for the CFA designation and was awarded the charter sometime in my late 30’s. I quit KPMG at 36, and went into the financial banking industry. It was a great career decision at the time, and I was rewarded with a wealth of contacts and experience.

When I was forty two, I returned to KPMG and slowly climbed the corporate ladder. At age 45, I became Partner. I spent a good 15 years at KPMG before calling it quits at the tender age of 60.

Now I’m bird watching and spending way too much time with my wife. (with a chuckle) I hope that answers your question.

Me: Thank you John, that was extremely helpful. Now, I’d like to ask you what are your thoughts on the CA designation at the moment?

John: The CA designation is still an extremely powerful designation, but it means a lot less now than it did in the past. My personal belief is that it is over marketed and starting to become saturated. I have a CA. I was a partner at KPMG. I’m retired. I have nothing to hide, so I might as well give you my personal opinions. I’ll spare you the sugarcoating.

This doesn’t mean that the CA is bad. But, marketing for the CA is bad and misleading. I read somewhere in your blog about the flock to IT careers in the computer boom. I almost completely agree with you. We’re going to start having a problem 5-10 years down the road when everyone has a CA. Here are some personal thoughts that I have:

1) Every young bright person wants to become a CA.
2) CA marketing promises huge demand but I just don’t see it happening. The economy is shrinking. The days of reckless spending are over.
3) Average CA salaries are highly misleading. The 180K average is probably for CA’s in their 40’s. Not freshly minted 27 year old CA kids. Please keep this in mind.
4) You simply cannot ignore economics. There is supply and demand. The supply of CA’s will keep getting higher at this rate, and demand will lag behind. This means that we have to start seeing a much larger demand for CA’s or we will have much lower supply.
5) Current CA’s are in a great position today. You don’t know if you’re in a great position if you’re 5-6 years away from it.

Me: *see previous post for follow up question*
John: *see previous post for follow up answer*

Me: Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. So, tell us, and I mean actually tell us, how do we get into the Big 4?

John: (chuckles) Know someone. I won’t tell you exactly how our picking methodology works as that is confidential information. But if you know someone in the big 4, you’re shots improve dramatically. I have been involved in the recruiting process and I’ll tell you a secret.

Understand the concept of reciprocity. That’s all you need to know.

If you’re not having success getting into the big 4, consider how you handle recruiting events. At recruiting events, everyone surrounds me and the HR manager and we have junior staff accountants and co-op students who no one talks to. You’re losing out a huge advantage. Your odds of developing a relationship with me are much lower than with the other people.

You’re not getting anything special from me. You don’t really impress me. I see kids with super averages and presidents of accounting societies all the time. I’m used to ass-kissing. If you’re kissing my ass, I don’t really remember you. The HR manager doesn’t remember you either. We’re use to that stuff. We’re watching how you interact with other people and who other people recommend to us.

Me: Are there certain personality types or attributes that would favor someone in the hiring process? Marks etc?

John: Marks don’t matter as much as you think, but more than what you might hope. Lets be honest. If you’re peers are dropping 90’s and you’re dropping an 80, it doesn’t really help your case. If you have anything less than a 75, I’m worried about you. Anything over an 80, you won’t be disadvantaged. There are loads of other factors. I see lots of kids with accounting society experience. I see lots of kids with tons of outside employment experience. The more you know, the better chance you have. I don’t really care if you’re an introvert or extrovert. That doesn’t matter really to me. What matters is that you demonstrated the ability to get the job done. Teams need different people. We’re not looking for all Type A leaders. We want people who can fit into any team and get going.

I especially love kids with sales experience. You take a look at the most successful people in the world. Every one of them has sales experience.

Me: Ok, thank you. Thank you. So lets talk working in Big 4. What are your thoughts on eating time?

John: (laughter) Eating time is an unspoken tradition. No one wants you to eat time, but if you eat it, they are happy. (more laughter)

Really, this is more a problem in the senior, manager levels who are looking to impress. The bottom line is important to partners, especially junior partners. I won’t lie to you. Any partner who tells you otherwise is flat out lying through their teeth.

There is no way around this problem. If I say I don’t want you to eat time, you’ll say I’m lying. How can I be unhappy with a bigger cut of the profit? If I tell you to eat time, cause I’ll write you a good review, you’ll think I’m a greedy SOB. So how can I possibly look good? Either way I lose.

Really, Partners want the all star managers to be partners. If you’re not an all star manager, eating time is one way to make that appearance. I won’t talk about the ethics or so behind that. It’s climbing the corporate ladder. You earn your stripes in a difficult way in any organization.

Me: If you were to go into KPMG today as a young student, which division would you choose, Audit, Tax, or Advisory? What department? Why would you make that specific choice over all of the other services that KPMG offers?

John: Go into Audit first. Audit really opens your mind up in terms of what you see in other industries. There is no particular department that is better than the other. It is personal preference, but you will not go wrong with Audit.

Me: What are your thoughts about specializations (ex: CA-IFA, CA-CBV)? Is it worth the effort to get a specialization? If yes, then which of the 6 specializations would you recommend and why?

John: It depends on what you are getting your specialization for. Ask yourself? Do you need this? If not, then don’t waste your time. If you are getting it simply for more prestige and money, don’t bother. If I had to choose, I recommend the CA-IFA. Forensic accounting is extremely interesting, and is very nice experience.

Me: Do you feel that the effort is justified to get the CFA designation (ex: attempt to pass all 3 levels of exams if you have a CA designation) given the potential rewards?

John: Again, the incremental benefit of a CA or CFA when you already possess the other is smaller than if you had no professional designation. I got my CFA because I absolutely loved finance. Studying for the CFA was fun for me, and I loved every part of it. It is absolutely not easy to pass all three exams. The amount of time, dedication and sacrifice that you have to put in to get a CFA when you are already working is astronomical. Unless you have the time and dedication, don’t bother unless you love finance. If you’re doing the CFA for the same reason you’re doing the CA, it is a huge mistake.

Me: Do you believe that the Big 4 will keep their consulting divisions? BearingPoint, for example split off of the KPMG.

John: BearingPoint was a great core business but ran into issues with financing the past few years due to a few bad decisions. It was quite disappointing to see something with such a long history go out like that. With that said, I feel consulting will remain strong in the future.

Me: What qualities should aspiring CAs have in order to be successful throughout University and, eventually, the workforce?

John: The most important quality is the ability to take rejection and failure. Everything else is second hand. If you can’t take rejection, you won’t take risks. If you can’t take failure, you won’t capitalize on opportunities when they present themselves. The best thing to do when you’re young is to do things where you are sure to fail. Learn how to handle failure. It is the single biggest curse of society.

Me: Do you see any changes in the demographics of partners at the big 4 firms? Are we likely to see more women and visible minorities within the next few years or will the glass ceiling continue to exist? Any tips for these groups on making it to partner level?

John: The only tip I have for you to become partner is to become very very good at what you do. You cannot be average and expect to make partner regardless of race or sex. There tended to be a bias that partners were all tall, white males in the past. I feel this is changing so I do believe the demographics will change in the next few years. There is no reason to think that you won’t make partner if you excel at your job.

Me: 4.) Other than accounting, what other sets of knowledge would help us in our career?

John: Again, I highly advise getting experience in sales and marketing. I can guarantee that you will fall behind if you don’t. This means that even if you were a sales person at best buy, you have an edge up over the next guy.

Me: Were the women at big 4 hot during your days? *wink* (someone actually emailed me this question.. I felt I had the duty to ask)

John: (lots of laughter) Yes. They were also quite pretty back then. Actually I met my wife at KPMG. I was a senior and she was a junior at that time. I guess all the extra help I spent with her was worth it. So you never know. Treat your seniors and juniors nicely.

Me: Let’s talk basketball. (John was a former high school basketball player) Who’s going to the finals?

John: Kobe vs. Orlando in the finals. Kobe in 6. Kobe is the most complete basketball player in today’s game. He can kill you from anywhere. Inside. Outside. Kobe is hated, much like I was hated as a partner. I got my job done. He gets his job done. You have to respect that. Orlando is too inexperienced to win the finals this year despite Dwight Howard in the post.

Me: Allright John, Thanks so much for your time. Any closing thoughts?

John: My only advice to young people is to do as much as you possibly can when you are in your 20’s. You don’t need a 60K Big 4 job when you’re 24-25. You’re not considered a failure. You don’t need to start your career at the Big 4. You can survive in life with or without your CA. Don’t make the CA something it is not. I am a CA, but my name goes before it. If you are good in business, your name is the only designation you will ever need. Don’t be afraid of failure. Don’t be afraid to try new jobs. Figure out all this stuff before your 30. Your 20’s is way too early to chase the corporate ladder and climb something you don’t want to be a part of. Don’t waste your 20’s. Find out your passion and give it a shot. Those were the best years of my life.

Interview answers to come shortly

I had a great interview today with our retired KPMG partner. The whole interview should be typed out and good to read by the weekend.

Here's a sneak peak at one of the questions and answers, for those who can't wait.

Me:

What are your thoughts on the CA designation? It has generally been my opinion that the CA field is getting over saturated. Now, it seems like every young university student wants to get their CA. What advice would you give a young person entering or finishing university today?

John:

Follow your heart. It’s cliché. I know. But It works. At the end of the day, you have to answer to yourself. I followed my heart – not the crowd. If you do what everyone else does, you’ll be just that. Ask yourself what you aspire in life. Do you want to live the dream of someone else or live your own?

It’s ridiculous how many young prospects I meet who tell me one day they dream of being a partner at a Big 4 firm. They say they want to be like me.

They never even stepped foot in a Big 4 firm. How on earth can you already aspire to be a partner? It’s like wanting to be Michael Jordan, not knowing the game of basketball.

Another student once told me: I can follow my dreams, but I’ll never make any money. That’s why I chose accounting.

I can tell you right now that if you have this attitude, you will fail in life. Your parents' may be proud of you. Your family might be proud of you. Your friends might think you’re a success, but you will never be proud of yourself. Worse off, you will never forgive yourself.

I see managers at KPMG who quit at 40 cause they couldn’t take it anymore. They have a mid life crisis and wondered why they went into accounting. I can pretty much guarantee you they would trade you their 6 figure job to be 20 again.

Success is hard work with a mix of luck and grabbing the right opportunities when they arise and rejecting the wrong ones when they try to grab you by the neck. It is a matter of opening doors and then closing them again when you don’t like what you see behind them.

If you like accounting, you already know this. Congratulations to you. Get your CA. I promise you it will be one of the most rewarding career paths you can take.

If you don’t like accounting, stop trying to fool yourself. Stop saying “Once I get my CA, I’m out of here.” You're already chasing the money.

If you can’t take a risk now, you won’t take the risk later.

-End of sneak preview of interview-

The full interview will be typed out, ready to read, and posted this weekend. Goodnight. Cavaliers in 7 btw.

Interview with a vampire

Interview with a vampire. Sorry, I mean a partner.

I want to be a CA has just scored an exclusive interview with a retired KPMG partner!

The KPMG partner has over 20 years of experience in the Big 4 and industry. He also holds a CFA designation and is an avid blog reader. Special thanks to John Blakely for setting me up with this awesome contact!

Topics I will be discussing for sure:
1) How to get into Big 4
2) His thoughts about the CA designation in this economy
3) How to succeed as a young person
4) Secrets about the Big 4
5) Further questions I receive from you guys

I am open to more discussion ideas. If you have more questions that you would like to ask, please email me by Wednesday May 27 midnight at

iwanttobeaca@gmail.com

This is a great way to get all your questions answered!

How to be the all star first year junior

Juniors are not created equal.

Your success in the big 4 starts at the junior level as you work towards your CA designation.

If you're a good junior, impress the right people, you'll be booked on more interesting jobs, and leave the "ticking and tying" party behind.

Let's face it. Life as a junior sucks, especially if you're an accounting intern trying to get that CA designation. Seniors always tell you how fun and stress free it is to be a junior. They are blatantly lying to you.

The Junior staff accountant does have the least stress, but also the least job responsibility. Sometimes the job responsibility is equivalent to photocopying, hole punching, and making check marks with green pens.

What exactly should you do to impress?

Here's my top 5 do and don't list.


1)
Do ask for help when you need it. However, seniors need to get their work done too. Think about the questions you are asking carefully, and see if you can solve it on your own. Make a list of questions and then ask them all at the same time. Nothing annoys seniors, and clients for that matter, more than one question at a time ... every 5 minutes. =(

Don't think you are better than you are. If you don't know how to do something, don't sit there all day acting cool thinking you do. Getting the job done correctly is more important than pissing anyone off.

2)
Do try to learn. Its very possible to finish your portion of the audit not learning anything. This is not a good approach. People forgive juniors for making mistakes. When your a senior, people are less likely to forgive you.

Don't just copy last years file. I know it's easy to do. But you are less likely to learn. Try to create your own template and compare to last years file. You'd be surprised how much you learn by documenting your own purpose and procedure rather than just rolling forward.

3)
Do more than what you are assigned. Everyone loves people who makes their own lives easier. When your done your work, ask the senior for more. Take Photocopying jobs with pride and honor.

Don't have messy working paper files. Learning is important. Documentation is even more important. Nothing is more yucky than messy working paper files. If you have bad handwriting, you better make sure you type it out.

4) Do try to have a strong relationship with your audit team and the client. Some clients are very hostile. Try to joke around with them. Some audit teams are serious. Try to lighten the mood. Some of the partners are not the strongest in terms of accounting skills, but their ability to speak with any type of person got them to where they are.

Don't ever piss the client off. It is GG for you if you do. If they are slow in getting you your required documentation, you're the one who is going to get in trouble. Remember at the end of the day, the client is paying your salary. They are your customer.

5) here's the juicy one..I had the to put a bad one here =)

Do stay very close to allocated budget. If you're allocated 40 hours a week, book 40 hours a week even if you spent 50. Eating hours is inevitable in the auditing profession. It is wrong. I don't like it. But it gets you ahead. At the end of the day, partners are rewarded more the less hours you have. Happier the partner, happier the manager, happier the senior, better your review.

It's the sad truth, but a hidden secret that only your close friends will tell you. HR, training, partners will tell you to never eat hours. Don't buy that BS. Everyone is eating hours, including your friends who tell you they don't eat hours.

I challenge any senior, manager or partner to tell me they have never eaten hours.

Don't worry about the designated hours. If you stay in a big 4 firm. You are guaranteed to get your 2500 hours. Never overbook cause you think it will fast track you to the CA designation.

Fun Senior = Fun Audit. Nice Senior = Boring Audit.

There is a difference between a fun senior and a nice senior.

They are two completely different things, like the the difference between going out with a nice guy/girl and a fun guy/girl. I only think that you can have a fun audit if you have a fun senior. Nice seniors are not bad. They are better than mean seniors, which are better than ugly seniors. Those are the worst.

I really believe that the senior controls the tone of the audit, and no matter what personality you are, you absorb the seniors' personality during the audit like a sponge. This is especially true if you are a junior.

If you are normally a fun, playful person, and the senior is a nice but, "let's get work done" type of person, you will never get to show your personality. This is quite depressing especially in long audits. It is like you are trapped in a "mental prison" where you cannot fully express who you are.

If you have a fun senior, you will have a fun audit where you will learn a lot. The fun seniors are the seniors who let you into their life, and want to get into yours. They laugh at your screw ups and joke about their own. They challenge you and make you accountable for your own mistakes. They make themselves seem "incompetent" to the whole team, and in the process win your trust.

Nice Seniors are different. They will help you with what you want and explain things nicely. They won't be mean to you. They will be nice, even when you make the silliest mistake. However nice seniors are boring. They don't let you into their life, and don't want to get into yours. They just want to get the audit done. They think by being nice "their audit team will perform optimally." Their audit team turns into a "What do you want me to do next?" robot.

Fun Seniors always are promoted faster than nice seniors.

The best audit engagements are the ones with a fun senior. You would rather work 9-8 for a fun senior than 9-6 for a nice senior.

When you become a senior, make sure you become a fun senior. It will mean that much more in the long run. Don't fall into the trap of being a nice senior. How do you become a fun senior? It is quite easy.

1) Don't be a mean senior. Those are the worst.

2) Get into your teammates personal lives as early as possible.

3) You can swear in your audit room. It actually makes your audit team more relaxed. Juniors, especially new juniors, tend to think seniors are perfect professional images. Show that its not true. People are most productive when they are at ease with their natural personality.

4) Make fun of your juniors. This is very important. If you are not making fun of your juniors, you are simply being a nice senior. Making fun of your juniors is like "flirting with a hot girl." If you ever want to impress them and make them happy doing stupid tasks, you must make fun of them.
It still amazes me how happy juniors are doing ticking and tying for the fun senior.

5) Sing in the audit room. If the juniors join in, you got them.

6) Help the juniors learn. If you make them more productive, your job will be much easier.

7) Make work fun. If you are having a bad time, most likely your juniors are having a worst time. No matter how stressed you are, never be a downer. You will destroy morale.

8) Free Timbits and Coffee always work

9) Always ask the juniors' opinion on things. It means the world to them even if they are wrong most of the time.

10) Don't fall into the trap of being the nice professional senior who is a "know it all." Express your weaknesses to your juniors. Show you are not perfect. Show your stress. Your juniors will
be so much more happy to help you.

Juniors view the nice seniors as a boss.
Juniors view the fun seniors as a friend.

CFA + CA = take over the world?

Do you want to be a CFA?

Apparently all my friends do, and peer pressure has got me signed up to write the CFA Level I examination in three weeks time.

For those who don't know, CFA "Chartered Financial Analyst" is another accounting designation that you must get to survive in this world. Without this designation, it is very possible that you might starve to death. However, with the CFA designation, in combination with the CA designation, you are on your way to ruling the world.

I'm not lying. Look at the Guide to Ruling the World.

Now, I'm questioning why I took the CFA Level I examination again. I did sign up in 2008, and it is unrefundable money. So.. I guess I've grown much wiser in the half year.

Nevertheless, the CFA Level I examination feels like its 10 University subjects combined in a comprehensive examination. Economics, Asset Valuation, Portfolio Theory, Finance, Ethics, and some other crazy things like derivatives.

The very pricy Level I examination cost close to $1000 and has had me studying, or semi-studying for the past couple of weeks. Many of my friends are very stressed out.

I'm annoyed by the fact that it is so early in the morning, and that you can't bring water into the exam.

My only other problem with the CFA Level I examination is that everything I learned I already knew. If you are an accounting major and took CA required courses, you pretty much know the majority of everything on the CFA Level I exam. So its not that interesting. The other thing is that I didn't become any better of a financal analyst over studying for this exam.

Bummer.

I'm going to go back to studying now. Just wanted to do this little mini-post about the CFA examination.

Is it worth it going to accounting networking events?

CB4 won me an interview. Too bad he can't win games.

I went to almost every accounting networking event offered at my University for the Big 4 firms, BDO and GT. I recommend going to every one, if you do not have something more important to do. When I say important, I mean studying for an exam, or doing an urgent assignment – not hanging out with friends.

You may have some smart people say that they got a big 4 job without going to any recruiting event. Either

A) They are top quality candidates. President of your accounting society, 90+ average, interpersonal skills that can make partners swoon, can pick up accounting chicks with “I’d like to audit your assets”.. or
B) They got hired during the Big 4 Massive Hiring Prosperity Period .. or
C) They got lucky

Times are changing now especially in our recession plagued economy world. I 100% recommend going to these events. You may think that it is boring, a bunch of ass-kissing, and all the same, but nevertheless, it is an integral part of the recruiting process.

You may hear friends saying, “It’s useless going. It doesn’t help. My friend got into KPMG without ever going to a recruiting event!” In that case, you should respond with “There is no way it can hurt in going. Since I have nothing better to do, I will go.”

There is no way it can hurt you in going to those recruiting events. Is it worth your time? Yes. Recruiters are advised to remember names of people who they feel have good “Big 4 potential.” This can give you an edge in the resume or interview selection process. I also believe it helps you develop your interpersonal skills if you are more of the anti-social type.

Part of being a multi-talented person is being able to keep up a conversation with anyone; whether it is a co-op working at Deloitte or a partner at PWC.

I only have two rules for big 4 networking events.

Rule number 1: Don’t’ bore and piss off recruiters.
Rule number 2: Never forget rule number 1.

How do you bore recruiters?

By continually talking and not letting other people talk. i.e. Hogging the recruiter.

Know when to enter a group clustered around a recruiter. Know when to exit a group. Do not stay with the same recruiter for extended periods of time no matter how well you think the conversation is going. Recruiters aren’t here just to meet you. They want to meet everyone. By not letting the recruiter go, this shows desperation and you are failing to let the recruiter do their job which will piss them off. I recommend staying with a recruiter only as long as there is no one else waiting to talk with them. If there are other people waiting, keep it short and simple.

If you are controlling the conversation and one of your friends wants to enter the conversation, be courteous and introduce the recruiter to your friend. This shows manners and how you would handle a professional setting.

Other common mistakes are asking boring questions. How do you like working at the firm? How long have you’ve been working at the firm? What’s the best part about working at the firm? What audits have you been on?

Impressing recruiters is just like impressing girls. =) Your success ratio is based on how you present yourself and NOT being nice and boring.

The problem with asking your typical boring questions is that hundreds of candidates ask those same questions to the recruiters every day. What exactly have you done to distinguish yourself as a candidate? It is ok to throw a typical “boring” question here and there, but your conversation should not be based on that alone. Have some substance. Talk about something interesting and you will learn about the firm at the same time.

Win a recruiters heart and you will win the interview.

The most successful accounting kids at my school were the ones who could talk about anything. They would talk about sports, cars, current events, past events, everything. They never hogged recruiters and showed professional courtesy. They could start conversations with "What do you think about Lindsay Lohan" and still win the recruiters heart. These were the people that recruiters wanted. Why?

They were interesting. They were memorable. They were not boring.

If you are not as good as them, talk about your passion, teach the recruiter something, or talk about something the recruiter has passion for. This will make you much more “distinguishable” from regular accounting kids.

I got a shot at my interview by talking raptors basketball with a senior manager. I quickly found out he played basketball. I asked what do you think about Chris Bosh? The conversation lasted 30 minutes ranging from everything from Vince Carter to draft picks. I also followed my rule number one, introducing people to the senior manager, and keeping the interesting conversation alive. There were only 3 people waiting to speak with him, and I incorporated them all into our basketball conversation. When I knew it was time to leave, I left graciously. I didn’t try to prolong the conversation beyond the “natural state” of the conversation. In my interview, I had another basketball fanatic. 1/3 of the interview was about basketball. I knew I got the job within the first 5 minutes.

Rule number one: Never bore and piss off recruiters.
Rule number two: Never forget rule number one.

Thanks DJ for a great question.